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Amendment request: Tea Party movement

Initiated by Mhawk10 at 04:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected: Tea Party movement arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement#Enforcement_of_discretionary_sanctions

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

Mhawk10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Information about amendment request

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement#Enforcement_of_discretionary_sanctions

My request is that a motion be made to strike the clause.

Statement by Mhawk10

The current clause states should any editor subject to a discretionary sanction under this decision violate the terms of the sanction, then further sanctions may be imposed as appropriate pursuant to the discretionary sanction remedy. There do not appear to be any active discretionary sanctions in this area based upon the arbitration enforcement logs (2013, 2014, 2015). Since the discretionary sanctions have been superseded by WP:AP2, and decision sanctions are distinguished from discretionary sanctions by the text of the case, this is a zombie clause that's still in force but can never be used. A motion to strike this zombie clause would help to complete the clean-up from when this got merged with AP2. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Tea Party movement: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Tea Party movement: Arbitrator views and discussion

If some arb wants to draft it I'll support it, but I also don't think any change is needed. Enforcement is now done through AP2 and the Tea Party DS were superseded into that. As such there is no Tea Party DS to be enforced and so the enforcement language is moot. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:40, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with Barkeep49; the motion to accept AP2 included a focus "on a broad topic and will examine allegations ... [including] the Tea Party Movement topic", and the Tea Party DS is not listed in the DS awareness codes. It might not have been formally superseded by Remedy in the case or an ARCA motion -- and if the motion to open the case had not specifically included the Tea Party I might be more in agreement -- but it seems fairly clear that any Tea Party-related sanctions are part of AP2 DS now. Primefac (talk) 20:43, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
While I am generally in favor of removing old or outdated sanctions, removing this one doesn't really change anything. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:08, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Armatura

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Armatura

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: MJL (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Armatura (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Armenia-Azerbaijan 2

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

12 June 2022 Armatura makes the absurd claim that he can't be reverted and threatens to report another editor (Golden) for their previous history of disregarding Wikipedia policies. I am not exaggerating here. Armatura explicitly makes the claim that WP:DONTREVERT is a policy.
I got asked by Golden to help figure out how to respond to Armatura here and determine where Golden might've misstepped (at least that's how I read the message). Instead, I decide to jump in and explain that (A) Armatura seems to gravely misunderstand the basic nature of Wikipedia's policies (WP:NOTCOMPULSORY, WP:OWNBEHAVIOR, etc.) (B) I don't like Armatura threatened to report a user over this incredibly minor content dispute (WP:BATTLEGROUND/WP:CIR).
13 June 2022 Armatura responds by saying I'm not fit to mediate conflicts in AA2 (which is an absurd claim and completely unrelated to anything I said or was trying to do) and proceeds to explain how I fall short of his criteria. Needless to say, Armatura completely misses the point. (WP:IDHT)
14 June 2022 Skipping forward a bit, after our conversation Armatura decides to vague post about me to the Teahouse where Armatura asks What does a third person do, if a mentor appears to be abusing their role and harassing a third person in order to protect their protege? (For context, I'm Golden's mentor of sorts.) (WP:HARASS/WP:BATTLEGROUND)
18-20 June 2022 Armatura comes to my talk page to complain about Golden. I explain I don't see any issues with Golden's response. Armatura offers me reading material about protegee-mentor relationships which I didn't ask for. I respond confronting Armatura with what he said about me at the Teahouse and Rosguill's talk page. Armatura denies he was talking about me (just blatantly lying at that point). (WP:CIV)
28 June 2022 A user (Abrvagl) brings forward pretty basic response to the concerns Armatura copy/pasted at WP:BLP/N and Talk:2020 Ghazanchetsots Cathedral shelling. There is so much going on with how Armatura replied in that diff. He questions how a user took only 6 months to learn Wikipedia's policies and improve their English. Then he responds by saying Abrvagl was being passive aggressive I-am-not-saying-anything-but-kind-of-openly-implying-things-nonetheless but says he won't respond that way (despite the fact he just did) while ignoring literally everything that user had to say to him. (WP:IDHT/WP:BATTLEGROUND)

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

23 January 2021 A since-overturned IBAN with Solavirum (talk · contribs)

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Placed a {{Ds/aware}} template for the area of conflict on their own talk page. [1] (It's not on the talk page, but WP:NOTBURO applies here folks.)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Armatura is the type of person to post about an Azeribaijani mailing list of more than 10 years ago on ruwiki and claim there are current enwiki editors still actively involved in offwiki coordination.
Armatura is the type of person to out a minor onwiki by stalking their social media ([2]).

My conclusion? Competence is required. Nothing less than a topic-ban for AA2 and a final warning about the copyvio or an indef block as an admin action would be sufficient for him here. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 18:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dennis Brown: I absolutely considered adding the template, but it would've been incredibly WP:POINTy. The point of the template is to ensure the person knows about the sanctions. What would be the point for someone who has {{ds/aware}} on their user page? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 02:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Done.

Discussion concerning Armatura

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Armatura

Thanks for opening this discussion, MJL. I will go one by one through the points you have raised.

Armatura claims he can't be reverted. You are referring to this. I didn't say I cannot be reverted, but I questioned why and based on what I was reverted, and I see a problem in using reverting as method of operation (I rarely use it).
Armatura claims that WP:DONTREVERT is a policy. I am yet to learn the pragamtic difference between policy, guidelines, and essays on Wikipedia by heart, that is true. I regard them as code of exemplary conduct, and if an (non humorous) essey says do not X,Y,Z, I sincerely try not doing X,Y, or Z. I was genuinely surprised that you put such a difference in between these terms, and I expressed by bewilderment on a neutral senior user's page.
I got asked by Golden, I decide to jump in. Your emotional jumping in felt to me that you had a go at me, you did not sound neutral to me, hence I asked a neutral user, who, while explaining my mistake in a peaceful manner (for which I was thankful), agreed that you did get more testy with me than would have been ideal. I did explain why I did not consider your intervention neutral, you may say these are my subjective feelings, but so are yours. You blamed me with threatening another user (I agree I could sound friendlier when I was questioning Golden's revert), but this felt like you were threatening me and putting an ultimatum in front of me (not a peaceful conflict resolution method, I hope you agree).
Armatura says I'm not fit to mediate conflicts in AA2 I explained above why I did not like the tone of your explanation, I believe mentorship should never work like that.
Vague post about me to the Teahouse - Armatura asks what to do if a mentor appears to be abusing their role? Not knowing what wiki mentorship is and the code of conduct of it, I asked in Teahouse those questions, and what I should do if I think boundaries are being stretched. I did not mention your name and did not report you anywhere, the question was for my own learning.
Armatura comes to my talk page... Armatura offers me reading material I came to your page following the advice given in Teahouse. After seeing you failed to see a problem when there is a problem with mentee's edits, I hoped you may reflect after reading academic material on well-described negative aspects of mentor-mentee relationship.
Armatura blatantly lying. Is this WP:CIV from you? My answer did not deny it was about you, I said "If you associate yourself with some of the things I asked about in TeaHouse, perhaps there has been some reflection after cooling down", meaning that I was talking about you and that I was happy you had some reflection on the points I made to you. You snapped at me again, hence I decided to leave the non-productive conversation peacefully, with a compliment in your address.
Compliment was genuine, by the way, I am aware of your contributions on Scots Wikipedia and things you say there on your userpage that you really love helping people and that you will not be afraid to stand-up to injustice deserve admiration. But, I don't think you are ideal, and I don't welcome your taking sides in AA2 debates, despite repeatedly declaring no bias. You defend problematic editors: One is blocked for sockpupetry, one is doing questionable edits (like this) while in probation after recent block for sockpuppetry]. Another on, recently warned for edit warring came to my talk page with seemingly reserved by stil unfriendly tone, "if I assume good faith" is never a good idea for starting conversation with a stranger, on Wiki or off Wiki, and wanted him to feel what it would sound like if I was him and he was me. The number of quoted policies sounded wikilawyering to me, for the pattern of English writing - we have previously seen disruptive coordinated editing from certain users and this language difference was quite striking, so it got my attention, check his previous posts and see for yourself.
claims there are current enwiki editors still actively involved in offwiki coordination This is not true. Everyone can read with their own eyes the memo on my page: A case of pro-Azerbaijani off-wiki coordination similar to WP:EEML have been revealed on Russian Wikipedia in 2010, with some of the current pro-Azerbaijani editors of English Wikipedia on the mailing list.
Outing I did not know anything about wikipolicis of outing at the time, and that such concerning behaviour should have been reported to Arbcom. I never crossed that boundarie again, once it was explained, hence the IBAN was rescinded and annulled in due course. --Armatura (talk)
Even though my account is 15 years old, I have not spent as much time on Wikipedia as much you think I do, and do not have experience you keep assuming I have - see my activity over years and that will be clear. I am grateful to all users who helped me to improve George Klein article I started, apologies for initial mistakes, I am yet to check what wiki copyvivo is and with what sauce it has to be eaten with. Best wishes, --Armatura (talk) 00:59, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

The whole point of the aware template is to establish awareness. I think the user is clearly aware and the request for enforcement should be considered on its merits and not dismissed on the technicality that the template is on their user page and not their user talk page. I have not looked at and do not intend to look at those merits, but it shouldnt be ignored without examining the merits. nableezy - 03:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Szmenderowiecki

First, we are not a bureaucracy. Secondly, a cursory look at AE archives reveals that a report against the user was filed in January 2021 (withdrawn). Armatura additionally commented in WP:AA2-related AE reports in November 2021 and in June 2022. According to awareness rules, a user is aware if In the last twelve months, the editor has participated in any process about the area of conflict at arbitration requests or arbitration enforcement (point 4). This clearly happened here. Please proceed with the analysis on the merits.

This comment does not endorse anyone's statements, it's just to make sure that the AE complaint is not dismissed on a technicality. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:29, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Armatura

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Armatura had not been given a DS notice since Aug of 2020, so we kind of have to do that in order to consider sanctions for actions after this notice is given. That doesn't mean an admin can't sanction using standard admin authority for any general bad behavior, but we can't DS sanction if they haven't been notified in the last 12 months. They did add the notification, which is odd, but I stand by giving the template given the circumstances. I have not looked at the merits at this time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't looked at the merits either yet, but the user has had - since January 2021 - a notice on their userpage stating "This user is aware of the discretionary sanction topic area(s): Armenia, Azerbaijan, or related conflicts. He should not be given alerts for those areas.". If a user with that template on their userpage was brought to AE and then actually tried to claim that the filing was invalid because they hadn't received an alert, they'd be told "No, because you specifically asked not to be given one", so that should be the case in all circumstances. Black Kite (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests

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Amendment request: Tea Party movement

Statement by Mhawk10

Statement by {other-editor}

Tea Party movement: Clerk notes

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Armatura

Request concerning Armatura

Discussion concerning Armatura

Statement by Armatura

Statement by Nableezy

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Result concerning Armatura

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Amendment request: Tea Party movement

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Armatura

Request concerning Armatura

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Result concerning Armatura

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